Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
February 08, 2010, 08:32:20 PM
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News: Skirmisher Acquires 'Quactica' Miniatures

+  Skirmisher Publishing LLC: Online Forum
|-+  Other Skirmisher Products
| |-+  OGL v.3.5 Materials
| | |-+  Tests of Skill (Moderator: Alzrius)
| | | |-+  Gnoll Crocuta Spells
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Gnoll Crocuta Spells  (Read 2713 times)
Skirmisher
President of Skirmisher Publishing LLC
Administrator
Dark Knight of the Starless Sky
*****
Posts: 825


Soldier of the Yellow Sign


« on: January 04, 2009, 02:00:28 AM »

Following are new spells usable by members of the Gnoll Crocuta prestige class, which appears in the updated and expanded version OGL book Tests of Skill that Skirmisher Publishing LLC just released. It is available through a number of online retail sites, including DriveThruRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=59861&affiliate_id=200677) and RPGNow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=59861&affiliate_id=200677).

All of these spells originally appeared in Skirmisher’s OGL book Warriors but have been thoroughly updated and revised here. These spells are available in PDF format as a free download from the same place where other Skirmisher books can be found, including DriveThruRPG.com (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=60014&affiliate_id=200677) and RPGNow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=60014&affiliate_id=200677).

Battle Runes
Several of the spells described here are classified as “Battle Runes” and were created by Skirmisher Game Development Group member Sharon Daugherty. The simplicity and cheap components of Battle Runes make them favorites of Adepts, Crocutaea, and primitive tribes with few technological achievements or resources. Actual rune shapes may vary according to local traditions.

Every variation of this spell requires the caster to have previously prepared a thick paint of animal lard and one or two other elements; if the materials are at hand but the paint is not yet prepared, the caster may compound it in one full round. This paint will keep for a week in a suitable closed container. In general, 1 gp worth of ingredients will make enough paint to cast any given Battle Rune 10 times (subject to the DM’s judgment on local item rarity).

Any Battle Rune may be voluntarily dispelled by the wearer, by willing its destruction and wiping off the pattern. The caster may also remove the rune, but must make a successful touch attack roll to do so if the wearer is unwilling. Only one casting of a particular Battle Rune can be in effect on a character at any given time, but different types can be used simultaneously.


Arms of the Hecatoncheires
Transmutation
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4, War 4
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Arms of the Hecatoncheires allows its recipient to grow additional arms, starting with one for a 7th level caster and one more for every two caster levels thereafter (e.g., two additional arms at 9th level). This spell is only effective on creatures that are actually supposed to have arms (e.g., it will not grow arms on a snake, extra paws on a wolf, etc.). It also bestows all the benefits of the Multiweapon Fighting feat, regardless of whether the recipient has the prerequisites for it.

Such arms function like normal limbs in all ways. Each one can be used to wield a one-handed weapon or a shield, and each pair can be used to wield a two-handed weapon. All arms granted by this spell are considered off-hands, meaning they only deal one-half their Strength bonus to damage rolls (or their full Strength bonus to damage rolls with two-handed weapons). Creatures under the effects of this spell are considered to have the Multiweapon Fighting feat, meaning that attacks made with their primary hand and their off-hands take a -4 penalty to attack rolls. This penalty is reduced to -2 if all of the off-hands use light weapons.

Characters making grapple checks (“grapple,” PHB) receive a +2 bonus for each additional arm they have.

Additional arms will not bestow weapon or shield proficiencies that a character does not already have, nor will they allow a recipient to both cast spells and attack in a round or to cast more than one spell per round.

Focus: An arm bone from a humanoid creature.


Battle Rune: Boldheart
Transmutation
Level: Adept 1, Clr 1, Zealot 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 30 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell gives a +1 resistance bonus to Will saving throws, and adds an additional + 1 to saves versus any type of fear spells or effects.

Material Component: A previously prepared thick blue paint of animal lard and woad or powdered brass. The rune is drawn on the target’s chest (runes depicting fierce beasts such as lions are favored by many casters).


Battle Rune: Hardbone
Transmutation
Level: Adept 1, Clr 1, Zealot 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 30 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell adds a +2 resistance bonus to the target creature’s Fortitude saves.

Material Component: A previously prepared thick black paint of animal lard, fine powdery wood ashes, and charcoal, used to draw a rune on the target’s abdomen (runes depicting strong beasts are favored by many casters).


Battle Rune: Hornskin
Transmutation
Level: Adept 2, Clr 2, Zealot 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 30 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell provides a +3 deflection bonus to AC. It requires the caster to draw a rune upon the target’s face, usually across the cheekbones.

Material Component: A previously prepared thick red paint of animal lard, dried blood (any kind), and red clay.


Battle Rune: Mindbright
Transmutation
Level: Adept 1, Clr 1, Zealot 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 30 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell bestows a +2 competence bonus on Listen, Search, Spot, Smell*, and Taste* skill checks rolled by the target creature. It requires the caster to draw a rune upon the target’s forehead.

Material Component: A previously prepared thick paint of animal lard and powdered silver.


Battle Rune: Sharpeye
Transmutation
Level: Adept 2, Clr 2, Zealot 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell adds +2 competence bonus to all of its recipient’s attack rolls.

Material Component: A previously prepared thick paint of animal lard and powdered copper, used to draw a large “mask” around the target’s eyes.


Battle Rune: Strongarm
Transmutation
Level: Adept 1, Clr 1, Zealot 1
Components: V, S, M
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell adds a +2 enhancement bonus to the target creature’s Strength.

Material Component: A previously prepared thick black paint of animal lard and powdered iron, and draw the rune on the target’s upper arm or forelimb (runes depicting strong beasts such as elephants are favored by many casters).


Battle Rune: Surehand
Transmutation
Level: Adept 1, Clr 1, Zealot 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Casting Time: 1 action

Application of this rune gives the recipient a +2 enhancement bonus to its Dexterity score.

Material Component: A previously prepared thick silverywhite paint of animal lard and powders of chalk and lodestone, used to draw a rune upon the target’s lower arm, wrist, or hand/paw/foreclaw.


Battle Rune: Swiftfoot
Transmutation
Level: Adept 2, Clr 2, Zealot 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell provides an enhancement increase of +30 to its recipient’s base movement rate. This increase applies to all movement modes that the creature has (e.g., Swim). As with any effect that increases your speed, this spell affects the recipient's jumping distance (see the Jump skill).

Material Component: A previously prepared thick golden-red paint of animal lard, sulphur, and powdered cinnabar, and draw the rune on the target’s lower leg or foot (bird and wing runes are favored by many casters).


Eye of Shiva
Transmutation
Level: Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 3, War 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes

When this spell is cast, an additional, fully-functioning eye forms on the forehead of the recipient and grants him darkvision. It also gives the character enhanced depth perception, bestowing upon him a +2 competence bonus on ranged attacks and Search and Spot skill checks while it is in effect. Furthermore, if the caster uses the dust of a crushed garnet during the casting, the recipient will be empowered to fire a gout of flame — once during the duration of the spell — from the eye. This flame takes the form of a 10-foot long, five-foot wide line that inflicts 1d4 damage for each level of the caster (maximum 10d4, Reflex save for half damage). It requires a standard action to fire the flame.

Variations on this spell that allow other sorts of elemental attacks to be launched from the eye (e.g., cold) are known to exist.

Material Component: The dried and powdered eye of an animal or other creature, plus crushed garnet of not less than 30 gp value if the caster decides to make the eye capable of firing a gout of flame.


Flesh Wounds
Abjuration
Level: Clr 3, Zealot 3
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell makes its recipient resistant to normal damage, all of which is automatically converted to nonlethal damage as it is inflicted. Such damage remains nonlethal and does not revert back to normal damage when the spell ends. If cast upon a wounded character, this spell will convert into nonlethal damage all normal damage suffered up to that point by the recipient and then continue to function normally for its duration. If rendered unconscious while under the effects of this spell, a creature can be killed with a coup de grace (PHB).

This spell has been long used by holy men to survive apparently lethal wounds (e.g., St. Sebastian).

Focus: A pin cushion.


Self Awareness
Abjuration
Level: Clr 3, Pal 2, Ranger 3, Zealot 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Preferred by religious warriors, this spell's offers greater protection to those of great insight. The subject gains damage reduction equal to its Wisdom modifier plus 1 (minimum 1), which may be overcome by magic weapons. The subject also gains energy resistance equal to its Wisdom modifier plus 1 (minimum 1) against all forms of energy (e.g., acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic).


Transformation of Jebus
Transmutation [Evil]
Level: Sor/Wiz 6, War 5, Zealot 5, Destruction 5, Evil 5
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Up to one humanoid creature/caster level, all of whom must be touched during the casting
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Formulated by a powerful spellcaster of antiquity, this spell can be used to effect a profound transformation upon its targets, with results that vary depending on the level of the subjects upon whom it is cast. While it can be used by many sorts of casters, the Transformation of Jebus is especially favored by witches, practitioners of black magic, and priests of war deities.

All beneficiaries of this spell will gain a +4 enhancement bonus to each of Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity and will acquire a bloodthirsty desire to immediately kill their enemies by whatever means are available (if a subject wishes to resist this urge, he is entitled to a Will save).

Many other characters will enjoy bonuses to their levels and ACs, depending on their levels of experience, as indicated below.

Level       HD    AC
1          +3d8   +3
2-3          +2d8    +2
4-6       +1d8    +1
7+       +0d8    +0

Hit Dice bestowed by this spell are levels of Warrior, each of which gives its beneficiary 1d8 hit points (plus Constitution bonus) and proficiency in light, medium, and heavy armor, shields, and all simple and martial weapons. Effects of this spell can manifest themselves dramatically, even horrifyingly, especially in the lower-level characters who are most greatly affected (e.g., natural AC bonuses from thickened, hardened skin, increased Strength from grotesque muscular growth, etc.).

If cast upon recipients that are blind, lame, or members of NPC classes, this spell can have even more profound effects, regardless of level, as indicated below. These conditions are cumulative (i.e., a blind, lame member of an NPC class would receive three levels of Warrior, +3 to AC, etc.). These effects stack with the level-based effects.

Condition    HD    AC
Blind       +1d8    +1
Lame       +1d8    +1
NPC Class    +1d8    +1

After a subject’s total number of bonus levels has been determined, he will gain all appropriate benefits (e.g., attack bonuses, saving throw bonuses, level-based feats). Blind characters will receive Blindsight (described in the DMG) for the duration of the spell. Lame characters — those with at least one missing or non-functioning limb — will either regain full use of their limbs or grow stout, new, but inhuman-looking limbs while the spell is in effect. Members of NPC classes are those that have advanced only as Adepts, Aristocrats, Commoners, Experts, or Warriors.

Subjects of this spell do not have to be of the same levels, classes, or conditions, and are all affected individually. Those who do not wish to be affected are entitled to a Will saving throw.

Hit points gained from this spell go away when the spell ends, they are not lost first the way temporary hit points are. Similarly, characters who were lame or blind have those conditions return when the spell ends. Finally, all subjects of this spell are exhausted when it ends, moving at half speed and taking a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity (if they rest for an hour, they will become merely fatigued).

Material Components: An appropriate living sacrifice (e.g., a ram for Clerics of the war god Ares) and a small amount of blood from a doppelganger or other creature naturally capable of transforming its physical form.

Focus: A bronze or iron cauldron, a fire large enough to heat its contents, and a thaumaturgic triangle (either permanent or specially drawn for this spell) large enough to hold all subjects of the spell simultaneously.

Note: The effects of this spell can be fairly complex and it is recommended that players or DMs planning on using it adjust the stats of the recipient creatures in advance rather than trying to do so in the course of a game.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 11:59:03 PM by Skirmisher » Logged

Be sure to register on this Forum so that you can comment on this and other topics!
Alzrius
Moderator
Nightcrawler
*****
Posts: 211


Email
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2009, 02:47:10 PM »

Wow, great list of new spells!

I was looking over them, and wanted to go over a few things that I noticed.

Quote
Arms of the Hekatoncheires allows its recipient to grow additional arms, up to one for every two levels of the caster over 5th. Thus, a 7th level caster could cause one additional arm to be grown, a 9th level caster two arms, an 11th level caster three arms, etc.

This seems to be phrased a bit awkwardly. Why not just say that the caster gains one arm at 7th level, and one arm for every two levels thereafter? Talking about 5th level - where they gain zero new arms - and working your way up from there seems unnecessary.

Also, this is unrelated, but I wonder if it'd be better to spell "Hekatoncheires" with a "c" instead of a "k," if only because that's how the D&D monster is spelled.

Quote
All extra attacks gained from these arms are made at a -5 penalty to the character’s normal total attack bonus (e.g., at +2 for a character whose main attack is normally made at +7). If the recipient has the Multiattack feat (“Multiattack,” MM), these attacks are made at a -2 penalty instead.

This is how things work for extra natural weapons, but not extra hands.

When you make extra weapon attacks with additional limbs, then attacks with your primary limb take a -6 penalty, and attacks with your secondary limbs take a -10 penalty. If you have the Multiweapon Fighting feat (also from the MM), then the penalty is reduced to -4 for all limbs.

Quote
A character can also use shields in his additional hands, gaining increased armor class benefits.

No, he can't. Shield bonuses don't stack - that's why I made up the Dual-Shield Wielder and Multi-Shield Wielder feats.

Quote
They also require armor to be worn more loosely — as if donned hastily — reducing AC by one place.

For the sake of simplicity, you may want to say that this happens automatically when the spell is cast, otherwise there might be questions of what happens if the armor isn't already worn loosely when a character uses this spell.

Quote
This spell gives a +1 bonus to Will saving throws, and adds an additional + 1 to saves versus any type of fear spell or effect, whether it derives from enchantment, necromancy, or a supernatural
creature ability.

I think you can just say "fear effects" at the end.

Quote
This spell adds +2 to the target creature’s Fortitude saves.

As a general rule, it's better to give bonuses specific types, so attempts to stack bonuses with various spell "cocktails" can be better curtailed. I'd recommend making this a resistance bonus.

Quote
This spell adds a +2 modifier to any kind of perception skill check (e.g., Listen, Smell*) rolled by the target creature.

I wonder if you could say it applies to Wisdom-based skill checks instead, save for Heal and Profession, since most perception-based skills seem to use that as a key ability. I'd also add recommend making this a competence bonus, rather than an untyped bonus.

Quote
This spell adds +2 to all of its recipient’s attack rolls.

I think that this should be a competence bonus also.

Quote
This spell raises the target creature’s Strength by 2 points.

I recommend changing this so that it adds a "+2 enhancement bonus" to Strength; otherwise this is just asking to be stacked with bull's strength.

Quote
Application of this rune raises the target creature’s Dexterity by 2 points.

Same as above, for cat's grace.

Quote
This spell increases its recipient’s base movement rate by one half (e.g., from 30 to 45).

This should probably be an enhancement bonus to the creature's movement, similar to other such speed increases (e.g. a monk's fast movement, the haste spell, etc).

Also, does this apply to all forms of movement a creature may have (e.g. if it also has a swim speed)?

Quote
When this spell is cast, an additional, fully-functioning eye forms on the forehead of the recipient and grants him darkvision. It also gives the character enhanced depth perception, bestowing upon him a +2 bonus on missile weapon attacks and Search and Spot skill checks while it is in effect.

Missile weapon attacks only? So thrown and other ranged attacks don't benefit from enhanced depth perception?

Quote
This flame takes the form of a 10-foot long, five-foot wide cone that inflicts 1d4 damage for each level of the caster (maximum 10d4, Reflex save for half damage).

If the flame is exactly five feet wide and ten feet long, it sounds more like a line (affecting all creatures in that area) than a cone.

Quote
This resistance will reduce damage from combat, mundane or magical elemental attacks (i.e., acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic), falling, and the like (e.g., traps that inflict damage), but will not reduce damage from other magical effects (e.g., Magic Missile, Inflict Light Wounds).

This seems too good. The character is getting unbeatable damage reduction AND energy resistance? This spells offers a bit too much at such a low level. Just imagine what this and an owl's wisdom could do for a character.

Quote
Transformation of Jebus

The complexity of this spell is going to make it rather unattractive. Play will likely screech to a halt while people add in all the factors of suddenly gaining extra Hit Dice (not to mention questions such as whether or not the hit points from it are considered temporary hit points - and thus lost first - or not (probably not), or the oddity of it granting two saving throws, one to resist the spell, and one to resist the urge to kill). It's a good spell, but the GM and/or players who use it should likely have the effects charted out and written down in advance for when/if it comes into play.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 02:53:18 PM by Alzrius » Logged
Skirmisher
President of Skirmisher Publishing LLC
Administrator
Dark Knight of the Starless Sky
*****
Posts: 825


Soldier of the Yellow Sign


« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2009, 03:58:02 PM »

Those are some great suggestions! I will start working through the spells and implementing them as appropriate.

Quote
Also, does this apply to all forms of movement a creature may have (e.g. if it also has a swim speed)?

I think it probably should apply to all forms of movement a creature has. Do you think we should state this explicitly? And is there any reason not to extend it to all forms of movement? Ones other than normal overland movement would likely be relegated to monsters anyway, so it is not really a balance issue.

Quote
Missile weapon attacks only? So thrown and other ranged attacks don't benefit from enhanced depth perception?

No, my intent was that it should be for all ranged attacks. Good catch.

Quote
This seems too good. The character is getting unbeatable damage reduction AND energy resistance? This spells offers a bit too much at such a low level. Just imagine what this and an owl's wisdom could do for a character.

Any suggestions on how to fix it? What if we were to give resistance to one type of energy for casters of at least 5th level and all types of energy for those of at least 7th?

Quote
The complexity of this spell is going to make it rather unattractive. Play will likely screech to a halt while people add in all the factors of suddenly gaining extra Hit Dice (not to mention questions such as whether or not the hit points from it are considered temporary hit points - and thus lost first - or not (probably not), or the oddity of it granting two saving throws, one to resist the spell, and one to resist the urge to kill). It's a good spell, but the GM and/or players who use it should likely have the effects charted out and written down in advance for when/if it comes into play.

It is an exceedingly complex spell and I tried to reflect that even in the preparations needed to cast it. It is also not intended primarily for player characters, in that it has some potential unfortunate side effects and has the most profound effects on creatures of much lower Hit Dice than the caster. In terms of its appearance on the Crocuta spell lists, the idea is that spellcaster would drag the most maimed members of its Gnoll tribe into a thaumaturgic triangle, gouge out their eyes and break their limbs for good measure, and then unleash the resulting 7 HD Gnolls -- nine or more of them -- on the party, the village they are guarding, etc. Potentially pretty horrific.

So do you think we should add a recommendation about pre-stat'ing any creatures this is to be cast on? And would that go after a "Special:" or "Note:" line at the end of the spell?

I am also thinking of simplifying it by making the ability score increase a flat +4 enhancement bonus, as per Bull's Strength, et al.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 04:09:49 PM by Skirmisher » Logged

Be sure to register on this Forum so that you can comment on this and other topics!
Alzrius
Moderator
Nightcrawler
*****
Posts: 211


Email
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2009, 04:54:16 PM »

Quote
I think it probably should apply to all forms of movement a creature has. Do you think we should state this explicitly?

I do. Clarity in this regard is a valuable thing, and it's not that hard to do.

Quote
And is there any reason not to extend it to all forms of movement? Ones other than normal overland movement would likely be relegated to monsters anyway, so it is not really a balance issue.

On the contrary, I think it's important that this spell apply to all forms of movement, otherwise (notwithstanding its longer duration and ability to be used on other creatures) it doesn't hold up in regards to expeditious retreat. To be honest, comparing that spell to this one, since its 1st level and this one is 2nd level, I'm still not convinced this spell goes far enough.

Quote
No, my intent was that it should be for all ranged attacks. Good catch.

I forgot to mention before that the +2 bonus mentioned in the spell description should also be a competence bonus.

Quote
Any suggestions on how to fix it? What if we were to give resistance to one type of energy for casters of at least 5th level and all types of energy for those of at least 7th?

This is a bit hard to measure because there aren't many spells that grant multiple abilities at once, particularly defensively (and when they do, it tends to be bonuses to defensive stats such as AC or saves, rather than things that directly stop damage). The variable nature of the spell (it depends on how much Wisdom bonus the target has) also makes it a bit harder to pin down.

You could get away with the spell effect as written, but I'd recommend raising the spell level to 4th. Otherwise, making the DR be overcome by magic weapons might be another mitigating factor, though even then I'd recommend it be no lower than 3rd level.

Quote
It is an exceedingly complex spell and I tried to reflect that even in the preparations needed to cast it. It is also not intended primarily for player characters, in that it has some potential unfortunate side effects and has the most profound effects on creatures of much lower Hit Dice than the caster.

It should probably also have the Evil descriptor. My worry is that, while it can't be cast in a dungeon setting, some mid- or high-level enterprising PC will take the Leadership feat, and have this spell regularly cast on his followers before entering a battle. Players are canny, and will find a way to make things work for them. Maybe the spell has some awful effect on the creatures it's cast on after it ends (though if they're injured a fair amount in combat, they'll probably die when the spell ends, as the hit points from the bonus Hit Dice and increased Constitution disappear).

Quote
So do you think we should add a recommendation about pre-stat'ing any creatures this is to be cast on? And would that go after a "Special:" or "Note:" line at the end of the spell?

I do, or something similar. That'd go after a "Note:" line.

Quote
I am also thinking of simplifying it by making the ability score increase a flat +4 enhancement bonus, as per Bull's Strength, et al.

I think that's a good idea, along with removing the part about them gaining additional attribute points if they had ability scores below 10.

Also, I forgot to mention previously that the flesh wound spell mentioned "subdual" damage, which should be "nonlethal" damage.
Logged
Moon Panther
Fanged Mistress of the Twilight Woods
Administrator
Dark Knight of the Starless Sky
*****
Posts: 418



WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2009, 05:56:51 PM »

Actually back in 2002 or 2003, when we did "Warriors" I was the originator of the Battle Rune spells. 

They were in part intended as a substitute for Adepts and Zealots, who do not have access to Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc.  The Cleric is the only one able to use them who can cast both, and you might want him spending his actions during combat doing something more than chain-casting stat augmentations. 

They may be stackable with in situations with a plethora of classes around to do the casting, but they were basically written as a low tech substitute for the shaman in the hills, who might be the only guy prepping the village warriors to hold off a raid, or the local cult's zealot warriors painting themselves up before rushing their hated enemies.  So yes, they could be abused that way; but I'd favor doing a "does not stack" notation on the spells instead of changing them that radically from the intended use by foes and exotic allies.

Just my two cents.
Logged
Alzrius
Moderator
Nightcrawler
*****
Posts: 211


Email
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2009, 06:24:35 PM »

They were in part intended as a substitute for Adepts and Zealots, who do not have access to Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc.  The Cleric is the only one able to use them who can cast both, and you might want him spending his actions during combat doing something more than chain-casting stat augmentations. 

While I can't recall what the Adept spell list looked like in 3.0, the 3.5 Adept does indeed have bear's endurance, bull's strength, and cat's grace on their spell list. Similarly, the Crocuta from Tests of Skill also has those three spells, and even the Zealot in Warriors has bull's strength on their spell list, so it seems pretty topical to me.  Wink

Quote
They may be stackable with in situations with a plethora of classes around to do the casting, but they were basically written as a low tech substitute for the shaman in the hills, who might be the only guy prepping the village warriors to hold off a raid, or the local cult's zealot warriors painting themselves up before rushing their hated enemies.  So yes, they could be abused that way; but I'd favor doing a "does not stack" notation on the spells instead of changing them that radically from the intended use by foes and exotic allies.

Most of these aren't very major changes; the majority of what I'm prescribing is simply typifying the bonus, which is essentially a "does not stack" notation already.
Logged
Skirmisher
President of Skirmisher Publishing LLC
Administrator
Dark Knight of the Starless Sky
*****
Posts: 825


Soldier of the Yellow Sign


« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2009, 01:56:33 AM »

Quote
"A character can also use shields in his additional hands, gaining increased armor class benefits."
No, he can't. Shield bonuses don't stack - that's why I made up the Dual-Shield Wielder and Multi-Shield Wielder feats.

This isn't normally permissible, but couldn't it just be a benefit of the spell? Spells transcend normal rules all the time, after all.

Quote
This is how things work for extra natural weapons, but not extra hands. ... When you make extra weapon attacks with additional limbs, then attacks with your primary limb take a -6 penalty, and attacks with your secondary limbs take a -10 penalty. If you have the Multiweapon Fighting feat (also from the MM), then the penalty is reduced to -4 for all limbs.

I went ahead and fixed this; let me know if it reads alright to you. Do you think it would be unbalancing to say that this spell bestows the effects of the Multiattack feat?

Re. Battle Rune: Swiftfoot
Quote
On the contrary, I think it's important that this spell apply to all forms of movement, otherwise (notwithstanding its longer duration and ability to be used on other creatures) it doesn't hold up in regards to expeditious retreat. To be honest, comparing that spell to this one, since its 1st level and this one is 2nd level, I'm still not convinced this spell goes far enough.

In light of this comment, I went ahead and changed it to a doubling of movement (and added the text from Expeditious Retreat about it affecting the Jump skill). Let me know if you think it works better now. And it does also affect all modes of movement, which the other spell does not.

Re. Self Awareness
Quote
You could get away with the spell effect as written, but I'd recommend raising the spell level to 4th. Otherwise, making the DR be overcome by magic weapons might be another mitigating factor, though even then I'd recommend it be no lower than 3rd level.

I like that former option and proceeded accordingly. Let me know how it reads to you.

Quote
My worry is that, while it can't be cast in a dungeon setting, some mid- or high-level enterprising PC will take the Leadership feat, and have this spell regularly cast on his followers before entering a battle. Players are canny, and will find a way to make things work for them. Maybe the spell has some awful effect on the creatures it's cast on after it ends ...

I think that is a legitimate concern ... This would probably be an unpleasant spell to be the recipient of, however, and we might thus add a note that everytime a character casts it on followers or a cohort his leadership score, if any, is reduced (e.g., by 1 or 2). What do you think of that?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 03:11:47 AM by Skirmisher » Logged

Be sure to register on this Forum so that you can comment on this and other topics!
Moon Panther
Fanged Mistress of the Twilight Woods
Administrator
Dark Knight of the Starless Sky
*****
Posts: 418



WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2009, 04:27:40 AM »

I backtracked to a copy of the 3.0 SRD; I am in error, they did have the bull's etc spells at the time.  I amend my statement to I probably didn't give a damn if they stacked it. 

In the case of Warriors there were many non-PC classes under discussion, and the "warpaint" or rune spells functioned as part of the less sophisticated spell world and irregular training being postulated for some of them, in which you were lucky to know some higher spells, if you knew any at all.
Logged
Alzrius
Moderator
Nightcrawler
*****
Posts: 211


Email
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2009, 01:50:23 PM »

Quote
This isn't normally permissible, but couldn't it just be a benefit of the spell? Spells transcend normal rules all the time, after all.

This is going to seem hypocritical, considering the feats that I wrote about this, but I really think this spell would be too good if it allowed shield bonuses to stack.

The more shields a character can wield, the more their armor class goes up, and they become harder to hit. Consider a 13th-level casting of this spell, which would grant a character four additional arms. If he uses a large steel shield in each hand, that's a +8 bonus, not counting what he does with his natural two arms. If he has each shield enchanted to be +1 (which is about 5,200 gp - not that expensive for a 13th-level character), then it's a +12 bonus, on top of his normal AC. And this gets worse as the caster gains further levels. Now imagine that the character also has the Improved Shield Bash feat, and this can quickly become an overpowered nightmare.

Moreover, the spell lasts for 1 minute per level, which means it's pretty much always going to last for an entire combat encounter. Given that the spell is 4th level, there's no reason a PC couldn't create a wand of arms of the hekatoncheires and use this on pretty much every PC in every battle they fight, allowing the party to "turtle shell" up behind several shields in each combat. (On the surface, this seems mitigated by the fact that generic magic items usually use the minimum caster level; however, that's a generic rule. Magic items use the caster level of the caster - unless he sets it lower for a wand (or potion or scroll) - and so a PC that makes such a wand can have it cast the spell each time at a high caster level indeed.)

The reason I wasn't concerned about this problem regarding the Dual-Shield Wielder and Multi-Shield Wielder feats is that most PCs are only going to have two arms to begin with, so will only be able to use Dual-Shield Wielder, and thus naturally capping just how badly they can abuse this particular combo; monsters that make use of Multi-Shield Wielder are okay because they're only "on-screen" for a combat encounter, so it's okay for them to push the boundaries in this regard. PCs shouldn't regularly have access to a combination this good.

Ironically, I also think you should nix the part about it making armor as if it was donned hastily; just let the magic of the spell make it so the arms don't interfere with worn armor at all. The spell shouldn't have a direct drawback, and that's an extra complication that isn't really necessary.

Quote
I went ahead and fixed this; let me know if it reads alright to you. Do you think it would be unbalancing to say that this spell bestows the effects of the Multiattack feat?

The wording still seems a little unclear. It's normally that a character takes a -6 penalty to attacks with his primary hand, and a -10 penalty to attacks with his off-hands. The Multiattack reduces this to a -4 penalty for both his primary and off-hands. I'm relatively confident that the other norms of two-weapon fighting apply here also; that is, if the character uses light weapons in his off-hands, the penalty for all his attacks (primary and off-hands) drops to -2, and that all his attacks with his off-hands (no matter what kind of weapon he uses) only gain 1/2 the Strength bonus to damage.

I don't think that there's a problem with it bestowing the effects of the Multiattack feat, though. That's necessary to really make the arms useful in combat.

Quote
In light of this comment, I went ahead and changed it to a doubling of movement (and added the text from Expeditious Retreat about it affecting the Jump skill). Let me know if you think it works better now. And it does also affect all modes of movement, which the other spell does not.

It seems pretty good now. I wonder if it'd be worth changing it to a flat +30 bonus, though. Small characters would get more of a boost that way, bringing it in line with expeditious retreat. The greater duration and ability to cast it on others, as well as affecting all forms of movement, make it pretty clearly more worthwhile.

Quote
I like that former option and proceeded accordingly. Let me know how it reads to you.

It's better, but I think you may want to use the terms "damage reduction" and "energy resistance" to make things more clear.

Quote
I think that is a legitimate concern ... This would probably be an unpleasant spell to be the recipient of, however, and we might thus add a note that everytime a character casts it on followers or a cohort his leadership score, if any, is reduced (e.g., by 1 or 2). What do you think of that?

My problem with this particular idea is that it fixes the issue of Leadership only; similar scenarios won't be discouraged. For example, when the PCs use a mass suggestion on a group of low-level monsters, for example, or some similar situation, that won't help. I think building a penalty into the spell when it ends is the answer here, though it probably wouldn't have to be too terrible. That and adding the Evil descriptor, since it's already an evil spell.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 01:54:41 PM by Alzrius » Logged
Skirmisher
President of Skirmisher Publishing LLC
Administrator
Dark Knight of the Starless Sky
*****
Posts: 825


Soldier of the Yellow Sign


« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2009, 04:15:25 PM »

Quote
This is going to seem hypocritical, considering the feats that I wrote about this, but I really think this spell would be too good if it allowed shield bonuses to stack.

Not at all! I trust your objectivity.  Wink  And you have done a good job illustrating the perverse extreme consequences of this spell when abused.

So, should I just remove all references to multiple shields, the idea being that the default rules are not being changed so that this issue does not need to be addressed, or should I make it clear that multiple shield bonuses don't stack and insert a reference to the Dual-Shield Wielder and Multi-Shield Wielder feats?

Quote
Ironically, I also think you should nix the part about it making armor as if it was donned hastily ...

Good idea. That is a very minor point and not one for which we should over-complicate the spell.

Quote
It seems pretty good now. I wonder if it'd be worth changing it to a flat +30 bonus, though. ...


Good suggestion. Done.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 04:22:12 PM by Skirmisher » Logged

Be sure to register on this Forum so that you can comment on this and other topics!
Alzrius
Moderator
Nightcrawler
*****
Posts: 211


Email
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2009, 04:27:16 PM »

Quote
Not at all! I trust your objectivity.   Wink

Thanks.  Cheesy

Quote
And you have done a good job illustrating the perverse extreme consequences of this spell when abused.

Yeah. It may seem a bit ridiculous to those who'd never go that far, but balancing a mechanic is making sure it's not prone to that kind of abuse in the first place.

Quote
So, should I just remove all references to multiple shields, the idea being that the default rules are not being changed so that this issue does not need to be addressed, or should I make it clear that multiple shield bonuses don't stack and insert a reference to the Dual-Shield Wielder and Multi-Shield Wielder feats?

I think it'd be best to just remove the reference to multiple shields entirely. That part doesn't need to be expressly spelled out, since they normally don't stack to begin with, and if those feats are located elsewhere in the book, people will be able to put two and two together.

Quote
Good idea. That is a very minor point and not one for which we should over-complicate the spell.

I agree, and it's generally better not to build in penalties to a beneficial spell to begin with (the penalties to multiweapon fighting alone are already enough in that regard).
Logged
Skirmisher
President of Skirmisher Publishing LLC
Administrator
Dark Knight of the Starless Sky
*****
Posts: 825


Soldier of the Yellow Sign


« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2009, 04:33:54 PM »

Quote
It's better, but I think you may want to use the terms "damage reduction" and "energy resistance" to make things more clear.

Done. I think it reads right now.

Quote
I think building a penalty into the spell when it ends is the answer here, though it probably wouldn't have to be too terrible.


I have added the following paragraph at the end of the spell's description. Most of the penalties described were already implicit in the spell anyway, but I have clarified them here and added the side effect of exhaustion. Let me know what you think.

"Upon expiration of this spell, its recipients are left exhausted, moving at half speed and suffering -6 to their normal Strength and Dexterity (until they have rested at least an hour, after which they will merely be fatigued). Furthermore, all hit points gained from additional temporary Hit Dice are lost, and significant injuries sustained while under the effects of this spell might be sufficient to kill or leave dying its recipients. Finally, creatures who received additional Hit Dice from being lame or blind will have immediately suffer the effects of those conditions once again."

Quote
The wording still seems a little unclear. It's normally that a character takes a -6 penalty to attacks with his primary hand, and a -10 penalty to attacks with his off-hands. The Multiattack reduces this to a -4 penalty for both his primary and off-hands. I'm relatively confident that the other norms of two-weapon fighting apply here also; that is, if the character uses light weapons in his off-hands, the penalty for all his attacks (primary and off-hands) drops to -2, and that all his attacks with his off-hands (no matter what kind of weapon he uses) only gain 1/2 the Strength bonus to damage. ... I don't think that there's a problem with it bestowing the effects of the Multiattack feat, though. That's necessary to really make the arms useful in combat.

Alright, I have rewritten that paragraph accordingly and think it is now simpler and clearer. Please let me know what you think.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 04:48:11 PM by Skirmisher » Logged

Be sure to register on this Forum so that you can comment on this and other topics!
Alzrius
Moderator
Nightcrawler
*****
Posts: 211


Email
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2009, 05:47:22 PM »

Quote
Done. I think it reads right now.

It still seems redundant in some areas, and a touch ambiguous in others. Here's how I'd reword it:

"Preferred by religious warriors, this spell's offers greater protection to those of great insight. The subject gains damage reduction equal to their Wisdom modifier plus 1 (minimum 1), which may be overcome by magic weapons. The subject also gains energy resistance equal to their Wisdom modifier plus 1 (minimum 1) against all forms of energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)."

That pretty much seems to cover it. The rest of it (not protecting against magic damage, etc.) is pretty well already covered in the descriptions for what damage reduction and energy resistance can do.

Quote
I have added the following paragraph at the end of the spell's description. Most of the penalties described were already implicit in the spell anyway, but I have clarified them here and added the side effect of exhaustion. Let me know what you think.

"Upon expiration of this spell, its recipients are left exhausted, moving at half speed and suffering -6 to their normal Strength and Dexterity (until they have rested at least an hour, after which they will merely be fatigued). Furthermore, all hit points gained from additional temporary Hit Dice are lost, and significant injuries sustained while under the effects of this spell might be sufficient to kill or leave dying its recipients. Finally, creatures who received additional Hit Dice from being lame or blind will have immediately suffer the effects of those conditions once again."

How ironic that I was just saying adding penalties to a spell were bad for arms of the hekatoncheires, and here I'm suggesting adding them. Oi.

The above paragraph is good, though I'd rearrange the wording a bit, like so:

"Hit points gained from this spell go away when the spell ends, they are not lost first the way temporary hit points are. Similarly, characters who were lame or blind have those conditions return when the spell ends. Finally, all subjects of this spell are exhausted when it ends, moving at half speed and taking a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity (if they rest for an hour, they will become merely fatigued)."

Quote
Alright, I have rewritten that paragraph accordingly and think it is now simpler and clearer. Please let me know what you think.

I see a few things to clarify. Here's how I'd write that paragraph:

"Such arms function like normal limbs in all ways. Each one can be used to wield a one-handed weapon or a shield, and each pair can be used to wield a two-handed weapon. All arms granted by this spell are considered off-hands, meaning they only deal one-half their Strength bonus to damage rolls (or their full Strength bonus to damage rolls with two-handed weapons). Creatures under the effects of this spell are considered to have the Multiweapon Fighting feat, meaning that attacks made with their primary hand and their off-hands take a -4 penalty to attack rolls. This penalty is reduced to -2 if all of the off-hands use light weapons."
Logged
Skirmisher
President of Skirmisher Publishing LLC
Administrator
Dark Knight of the Starless Sky
*****
Posts: 825


Soldier of the Yellow Sign


« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2009, 01:26:19 PM »

Those are all good rewrites! You have a good eye for clarifying and simplifying rules text. I have gone ahead and incorporated all of them. Think we have done a nice bit of work with these spells! Now we can arm our Crocutaea with them confident that they are up to standards.
Logged

Be sure to register on this Forum so that you can comment on this and other topics!
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!